Lin Song 0:06
Hey, welcome to the Postdoc Leadership Fellow Podcast. I'm Lin Song, third year postdoc in the Hellen Diller Cancer Center working on lung cancer.
Rachel Rudlaff 0:16
I'm Rachel Rudlaff. I'm a postdoctoral fellow in Bo Huang's Lab.
April Bell 0:20
I'm April Bell. I am a second year postdoc with the California Preterm Birth Initiative.
Oleta Johnson 0:26
And I am Oleta Johnson. I am a third year postdoc, also at the Mission Bay campus, working in Sandler neurosciences building. And in this series, our goal is to promote community at UCSF by connecting you to resources that are important for being a postdoc.
Rachel Rudlaff 00:51
In our fifth episode, we're having a conversation today with Ellen Goldstein from the office of the ombuds at UCSF. We really hope you enjoy listening to our conversation.
Hi, everyone. I'm Rachel, I'm a Postdoc Leadership Fellow and a first year postdoc here at UCSF. Lin?
Lin Song 01:10
Hi, my name is Lin, I'm a third year postdoc in Hellen Diller Cancer Center, also a Postdoc Leadership Fellow. Today with our guest, Ellen?
Ellen Goldstein 01:20
Great. My name is Ellen Goldstein. I'm the director and an ombuds in the UCSF office of the ombuds.
Rachel Rudlaff 01:27
All right, well, that launches us off into our first question, Ellen. So can you start out by giving our listeners a short description of your office and how your office serves postdocs?
Ellen Goldstein 01:42
Yeah, and thank you for asking that because the word ombuds is a little confusing, and it means different things in different times. So, I often start all of my appointments with a brief description of who we are and what we do. So we are the off-the-record conflict resolution resource. We're available for faculty, staff, students and trainees, and we provide services based on the International Ombuds Association standards of practice. So, I'm going to go through them, there's four, and they're really short. We're confidential, we don't share who we've met with or what's been said. And what that means is that we're not an office of notice. We're not mandated reporters. And people can say anything with any level of detail and know that it won't go anywhere else. The one exception to that is imminent threat of serious harm to self or others. So we're confidential, we're independent, we're not part of HR. We're not part of any chain of command. We're informal. So if there's a formal grievance or process, we don't become a part of it, we're impartial. So, we don't tell people what they should do. Nothing we say is binding. We don't carry authority. And we're voluntary, so nobody can be required to come to the office of the ombuds--really an opportunity, a place for people to talk about what is going on for them and have a thought partner. We do one on one consultation and coaching, we do two and multiple party mediation, and we work with groups. And, what I'll say is that we're really a thought partner. We can help people understand what policies govern whatever's going on for them and help them think through. "Do I want to go formal? Do I want to stay informal?" And it's really a conversation. It's not, it's not a big, stressful appointment.
Lin Song 03:25
That's good to know. Thank you so much. The next question is about you. What drew you to UCSF and to your current role?
Ellen Goldstein 03:34
So, those are, interestingly, two very different questions. I came to UCSF in 1988. And I came to work on HIV prevention. And I was at AIDS health project for four years. And then I was in working in research at the Center for AIDS Prevention Studies for 12 years. And then I worked at CTSI, managing the community engagement and Health Policy Program for another seven years. So what brought me to UCSF initially was HIV. I wanted to make a difference, and the epidemic was new, and it felt critical to be involved. And then I got recruited to the office of the ombuds. So, all of my work before was internal-external, UCSF's relationship to the outside world. And I got recruited to come work with our own community internally, which I love. And my background is social psychology, and I have a social justice commitment. And so, the idea of being able to help people think through options in an off-the-record way feels really, really important.
Rachel Rudlaff 04:37
That's, that's so cool. And so good to hear. Also fascinating to hear the, you know, relevance perhaps of what drew you to UCSF initially, along with what's going on right now.
Ellen Goldstein 04:48
So many parallels, it's frightening.
Rachel Rudlaff 04:52
Yeah. I think given that, so, you just talked about how you really enjoy helping people think through options. Thinking about that, you know, what do mos-- what do postdocs most commonly come to the Office of the Ombuds for?
Ellen Goldstein 05:07
Yeah, so people come to talk to us about dynamics in their team or their lab, especially issues around favoritism and fairness, and gossip, and power. And yeah, I can see from your face that that's something you've either heard about or experienced. And so, there's really a sense of 'what's going on in the team?' So, that's one kind of area postdocs come to us with. The other, the second, is relationship with the PI, ranging from feeling overlooked, to feeling mistreated, to feeling pressured, to feeling supported in a way that serves the PI, or not supported, and all sorts of career questions. So, the relationship with the PI. And we help people have productive, thoughtful conversations with the PI, with other members of the graduate division or sort of help them think through options. And then, concerns about authorship, intellectual property, ownership of data, you know, all of that. So, those are some, but another way to answer that question, because I always have multiple ways to think about things. That's part of what we do as an ombuds, is we have people think about, we help people think about things in multiple ways, is we have what we call the Big Six, the themes that postdocs, but also anybody comes to our office to talk about, and it's communication, respect, recognition, style, role clarity, and trust.
Rachel Rudlaff 06:36
Yeah, that sounds like about the things that one could imagine having challenges with in the lab.
Lin Song 06:43
Yeah, clearly, postdocs come to your office for many reasons. And, what misconceptions do postdocs have about the office?
Ellen Goldstein 06:52
Right. That's such an important, because there's so many misconceptions. And the biggest one is that it has to be really bad before you go to the Office of the Ombuds. And the truth is, you can come in when it feels like, 'huh, something's not great. And I'd like it to be great.' And 'I'm not', and 'I'm starting to feel' or 'this thing happened,' or 'I've heard about,' and people wanting to work on things earlier. So, that's one misconception is that it's got to be terrible before you come. And the second misconception is that we will serve as an advocate, as an advocate for the postdoc, or as an advocate for the PI and the lab and the institution. And, given that our role is in neutral, our role is really to help somebody identify 'what's your goal here?' And then, what are some strategies that you might choose to achieve that goal. And then, let's look at those strategies together and think about the pros and cons of each. And there might be a policy, there might be a skill, there might be an approach, there might be an email or a letter that we help somebody, we review it with folks and help them craft some language that communicates their intent, clearly, so people think that we might come in, in order to advocate, and our role really is that neutral to say what--we're applied, we're practical--What can you do to help meet your goal in this context, if possible? So, one thing we talk to postdocs about, and actually, anybody who we see, is what we call the universe of options. So, quite often somebody will come in and this framework is helpful. So, there are what I call four lanes. I call it the ombuds dance. Somebody could decide to do nothing, because either the stakes are so high, or because they decide that in fact, they can live with it--'I'm going to be gone in you know, another three weeks or six months, and I'm just gonna like head down, go through it,' or things are really, the stakes are very, very high. So, I am going to do nothing, that might be the right choice for somebody. The next option is to do something informal. And an informal option can be either mediation with our office, it's off the record, it's confidential, it doesn't go into anybody's file, it can't be used in any other way. So, it's when two people voluntarily agreed to engage in problem solving about their conflict between the two of them in a way that is supported. So, that's one informal option. And the second informal option is to have what I call a back pocket response. So, if I know that every time I engage with Person X, we have this kind of encounter, and it's terrible in the same kind of way, I might come up with a response that I'm ready for. And so I might say, 'Hmm, what do you hope I take from that comment?' Or, 'That feels really counter to the pride principles, I'm wondering if there's a different way to have this conversation?' Or, 'I didn't know that you believed that. Can you tell me more about why?' So, those are informal options. That's the second lane. The third lane is a formal option lane. And it can be, and again, there's two options here, there's kind of three, but internally to UCSF there are two, one is to go on the record by telling somebody who's a mandated reporter, going to your PI, going to a supervisor, going to another faculty member, and letting them know what's going on. So, that's considered a formal option, because then the institution's on notice, and there needs to be a follow up if deemed appropriate. And the second formal option is to file a formal grievance or complaint. And that can be through many different ways. And, so, our office can talk to folks about what those options are. But, that that's another way of going on the record. A third formal option is outside of the UCSF process, people can go through a legal process or file a grievance outside in a more formal way. And then the fourth lane, in this universe of options is to leave. And sometimes people identify that that's really the best option for them. And given their goal, that's the best option. So, none of these are the best option for everybody. And any of them can be the best option for that person in that situation, based on their stated goal. So, we help people think through that. And so, we have a handout on our website on the universe of options, but I'm a big fan of thinking through--let's look at everything and then decide.
Rachel Rudlaff 11:28
That's super cool. I'm, I'm curious. The like, the first don't do anything option, something that we've been talking about the Postdoc Leadership Fellows, and Lin was there, we had a discussion this morning, about like power imbalances and security and stuff. And I'm wondering like, for postdocs, if you see more of that option, because you're in a state with less job security and more reliance, perhaps, on your particular advisor for your next steps in your career.
Ellen Goldstein 11:56
I'd say that we see the gamut, we probably see more of 'do nothing' or 'leave', you know, sort of either one of those for exactly the reasons you're stating. But, we also see informal options where we--people who have already decided a conversation's impossible, and we try to help people look at what might be possible, and do role plays and think through and talk about how you might frame something. So, there are a lot more strategies for having that conversation than people sometimes think. And so, personally, I help I try to help people consider is that even an option? And the answer may be no, I don't know, you know, as a neutral, it's not up to me. And I absolutely trust that somebody has a much better sense of what's going on in their situation, than an ombuds would as an outsider, but I also know that sometimes people have already written off having a conversation as an option. And so we explore that. And at the end of that, some people will say, I think I can try this, or I think I can try writing it out. And maybe the first draft, I'm just writing for me, and it's just like, uh, you know, I got to write out all my feelings and fury and whatever. And then I'd write a second draft. And I'll show that to you. And I'll get some feedback. And maybe the third draft is the one I'll send. So we sometimes help people write it, sometimes help people develop talking points. And really, for some people, that conversation isn't the right strategy. And I really trust people will choose what works for them.
Rachel Rudlaff 13:27
Super cool. Thanks for that explanation. I think it helps to understand like, what choices there are and to not feel like there's only one way to go about something when it's already a very stuck situation.
Ellen Goldstein 13:40
Yeah. Yeah. If we can do some unsticking, that feels like success to me.
Rachel Rudlaff 13:45
Yeah, that's great. I think you started, you know, you address this with the misconceptions. But I think, just to hammer this home, if someone is listening to this, and the postdoc is not sure if the office of the ombuds is the place for them, what would you say to that person?
Ellen Goldstein 14:01
I would say you don't need to know what you want when you call. So, you can call just to say, 'This is going on, I don't even know if you're the right people to talk to,' and then we can talk through it. And, if it's the right fit, then we can have a conversation and do a consultation or coaching session. And we also don't do fifty-minute hours, we can talk for longer. We don't have a limited number of 'you can meet three times,' we don't do the once a week kind of thing. We don't do therapy and we don't do advocacy. So, we're that lane in the middle where for sure we talk about feelings or what's frustrating or hard. And for sure we talk about how to stand up for what it is that you're trying to accomplish. Again, if it's reality based, we also, you know, we also have a context of knowing the institution so we can talk through what options what resources, what policies, but we're that middle lane of really helping somebody think through, what's your next step? How do you get there? So, I would say, if you don't know if it's the right time to call, go ahead and call. We're quite happy to have that conversation.
Rachel Rudlaff 15:09 Hi, Rachel here, I hope you're enjoying the episode. And if you are, be sure to check out the Postdoc Office website at postdocs.ucsf.edu to keep up with our latest resources, events, and programming all to help build community among postdocs, and help you reach both your research and career goals. I also encourage you to reach out to any Postdoc Leadership Fellow if you have any questions about what you're hearing in this episode, or if there's something else you'd like to hear from us. And, now, back to the podcast.
Lin Song 15:44
When do you recommend folks come to see you?
Ellen Goldstein 15:48
Sooner rather than later. And I can't even tell you the number of times people have said to us, "I wish I'd called you weeks ago", or months ago or a year ago. Smaller, earlier concerns are often easier to address, to repair and to refocus than ones that have had time to grow and become complicated or concretized. So, we say come early.
Rachel Rudlaff 16:13
That's super important. So, when you're, you know, when someone comes to you and has a meeting with you, what's the goal for you and the other ombuds in the office? You know, how do you want postdocs to feel after they attend a meeting with you or attend an event from your office?
Ellen Goldstein 16:29
Yeah, I think the first is we want folks to feel heard, that we really get it; not just what you said, but what you meant behind what you said, what's really going on. So, sometimes that's the biggest thing. And then the second is, I hope that people would feel hopeful and ready to take a next step, whatever that step is for them. But, my sense is people often come to us frustrated, angry, hurt, hopeless. And that my goal is that people leave feeling like they have an idea of a next step.
Lin Song 17:04
Clearly, you're office is very important for the whole UCSF community. So, this question comes back to you again, what's your favorite thing about your job?
Ellen Goldstein 17:15
My favorite thing about my job is when somebody says the appointment was helpful, and that they can i-, that, that being able, that they can identify a good resource or a good strategy, and that they leave feeling or saying, 'wow, this was really, wow, I didn't know that you guys were here, this was really helpful. I'm so glad that I called. I'll call you back and let you know how it went.' Or, 'Let me think about that, and and then I'll call you back and tell you where I'm thinking about it, how I'm thinking about it now.' So, that's my that part of the job is when it really feels transformational. When it matters, when it makes a difference in how somebody is thinking about their options. Sometimes their options aren't possible. So, sometimes somebody might say, you know, 'I really want somebody to be different.' Or 'I want to, you know, to just have my PI be a different person,' or 'I'd like to change labs like that' [snaps]. And that's, you know, what I call the I Dream of Genie solution, like, I just want to make it magically happen. And, so, sometimes the reality check is that there's a process and that it's not impossible, but here are the steps, and we can you know, be very reality based. So, what makes my job feel like it's my favorite job, which it is my favorite job, actually, for all these 30 years, all of them have been my favorite job. I've been very, very lucky. But, when somebody said that it changed what they wanted to have change, or they know something they didn't know before, or they practiced a skill they didn't think about exercising before. I often send people out with handouts, with some skills. And I love it when people walk away not feeling as stuck because they've got something in hand where they can say, 'Alright, here's something about giving and receiving feedback.' Or, 'This is about having conversations about Equity, and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion and belonging. And I can figure out how to have that conversation differently,' or microaggressions, or power and bullying. So, I love it when people have a sense of agency.
Rachel Rudlaff 19:16
That is so cool. And I'm wondering if after this--is your office, one question on the list is is your office prepared for the number of appointments you're about to recieve?
Ellen Goldstein 19:28
Yes, yes, bring it.
Rachel Rudlaff 19:29
I feel like you're so lucky to have this service. Because all of these things are challenges that postdocs and other members in UCSF community face. And we're really lucky to have resources to begin to manage these situations in a way that benefits everyone. So, that's really awesome. Our last question is, you know, this is the last minute addition, is one that, you know, what's one thing that your program did for postdocs you didn't expect or what's something that surprised you about your role?
Ellen Goldstein 20:00
So, I did expect helping people with interpersonal kinds of things which in our research, our evaluations show that that's really what people benefit from, is the work on research. I think what was surprising is some of the work we've been able to do with folks around intellectual property and authorship. And some of it is reality testing, and some of it is making a referral to the in-house resource at UCSF, which was amazing and helpful and being able to partner with other parts of UCSF and find that postdocs have gotten served and have gotten satisfaction. So, that's, I think, that's been surprising, in a great way. And I think the other piece, I'd say, is partnering with the graduate division, that there are really amazing resources there. And being able to make a referral, and then having somebody who was scared or not sure how to frame their request or question, really get a better sense of how to tee themselves up for getting good service. That's been that's been, I don't know, surprising, gratifying. All those words.
Rachel Rudlaff 21:14
Yeah, we're really lucky here at, well, shameless plug for the other episodes of this. We're really lucky here at UCSF to have so many different good resources that kind of overlap and can intersect with each other when you're facing a challenge.
Lin Song 21:27
What's the favorite thing to do in the area? We know the postdoc is a community from all over the world from here to the east coast, all the way far away from Europe, from Asia, for those postdocs who come to the area, what you recommendation for them to do, anything? Food?
Ellen Goldstein 21:51
Yeah, so I would say my favorite things about being in the Bay Area, there's sort of two, one is eating and then one is working off large, delicious meals, by hiking. There's incredible hiking. I live in the East Bay. And the redwoods are gorgeous, and they're not all over the world. So, it feels really special. And you can just get there pretty easily and, and and so definitely hiking. But then the other side is any kind of food. Any kind of food. There is deliciousness here. So I'm quite, I'm a fan of, yeah, something different all the time, taking chances. Exploring. Yeah, so eating and hiking.
Rachel Rudlaff 22:34
I was in the Redwoods yesterday. They're awesome.
Ellen Goldstein 22:37
Yeah, yeah, we're just, we're you at Redwood Park up in Oakland?
Rachel Rudlaff 22:41
Yep. Yep. Yeah.
Ellen Goldstein 22:42
So accessible. Just like, right there. I just found a new hike on Tilden, in Tilden Park, off of Spruce. So, you just head up spruce and it dead ends, you can go to the left, to the steam trains or to the right to a trail called Lone Oak. That first left, you go into the picnic areas, and the trailhead is just a little sign that says Lone Oak. And it's like a three mile loop. And you get, not really hilly, there's eucalyptus, there's shade there sun, there's views, there's being enclosed in trees. It's like everything.
Rachel Rudlaff 23:20
That's awesome. Yeah, I think that's all of our main questions. Lin, do you have anything else? Ellen, do you have anything else you want to add?
Ellen Goldstein 23:31
I think that I would just want to add that transformation is possible. I've seen people go from a situation that felt really challenging to figuring out ways to make it, to make it work. And, there are a lot of, you know, structural, interpersonal, strategic, all sorts of ways. But I'm a great believer in change being able to happen. So, I guess I want to encourage people to not get too hopeless or get stuck, and to leave open the possibility that a situation can improve.
Rachel Rudlaff 24:02
Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you.
Ellen Goldstein 24:05
My pleasure. Thanks for asking.
April Bell 24:11
Thank you for listening to the Postdoc Leadership Fellows podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. But more than that, we hope that it was helpful to you.
Oleta Johnson 24:19
And if it was helpful to you, we encourage you to share this with any postdoc that you think might find this information useful.
Rachel Rudlaff 24:29
As a reminder, you can contact us at any time you can find our information on the Office of Postdoctoral Scholars website, and you can also reach out to the postdoc office.
Lin Song 24:40
Thank you so much for listening to this episode.