Lin Song 0:06
Hey, welcome to the Postdoc Leadership Fellow Podcast. I'm Lin Song, third year postdoc in the Hellen Diller Cancer Center working on lung cancer.
Rachel Rudlaff 0:16
I'm Rachel Rudlaff. I'm a postdoctoral fellow in Bo Huang's Lab.
April Bell 0:20
I'm April Bell. I am a second year postdoc with the California Preterm Birth Initiative.
Oleta Johnson 0:26
And I am Oleta Johnson. I am a third year postdoc, also at the Mission Bay campus, working in Sandler neurosciences building. And in this series, our goal is to promote community at UCSF by connecting you to resources that are important for being a postdoc.
Lin Song 00:49
In our eighth episode, we are here with Drs Bhushan Kharbikar and Anne Sapiro from the union. We hope you enjoy the podcast.
Hi, everyone. My name is Lin, a leadership fellow, today with my colleagues.
Rachel Rudlaff 01:10
I'm Rachel and I'm also a Postdoc Leadership Fellow. And I'm a first year postdoc and Bo Huang's Lab. Today we're talking to two stewards from the UAW Union at UCSF. They represent all of our postdocs, and I'll let them explain a little bit more about what the union's all about and introduce themselves. So, Anne.
Anne Sapiro 01:30
Yeah, hi, my name is Anne Sapiro. I'm a third year postdoc at UCSF. I work in Seemay Chou's lab studying how ticks transmit Lyme disease, and I'm also a head steward for the Union.
Bhushan Kharbikar 01:44
Hi, I'm Bhushan. I'm also a postdoc in Department of Bioengineering. I work with Professor Desai, and we work in the area of regenerative medicine cell therapy. What we are trying to do now is to build an artificial pancreas to treat type one diabetes.
Rachel Rudlaff 02:02
Can you start out either of you by telling us briefly kind of what the union is all about? And, and, what you do to serve postdocs. It's a little different than some of the other offices in that the union's mostly made up of other postdocs serving other postdocs. But, can you give us a brief description of what you all do and how you serve postdocs?
Anne Sapiro 02:21
Yeah, I can, I can take that one. So our our union is actually a union of over 10,000 people, postdocs, and also academic researchers at UCSF and across all UC campuses. And sort of at a basic level, what we do is we work together to negotiate with the UC to set minimum standards for our pay, our benefits, and our rights and protections. But, like you said, Rachel, like, postdocs and academic researchers run all aspects of the Union. So it's not really a service for postdocs so much as it's like a mechanism that we can come together, and be in community and help each other and get help when we need it. When we have issues during our postdoc work.
Bhushan Kharbikar 03:09
Yeah, if I want to add to what Anne said, absolutely, I second that. But, as we are not serving, but rather, we are building a community of all postdocs which help each other. We invite every other postdoc to come and work with us work, for, for us, for themselves and work for the larger community to get benefited, to build you know, to build a good environment for incoming postdocs, next generation postdocs, which are going to come because someone who worked before us, we are reaping the benefit of their work as well. So, this is kind of a community work, what we do.
Lin Song 03:50
I do like what you just said, we are the community and you guys certainly do very important work. And the next question is that what draw you to UCSF and to your current role?
Bhushan Kharbikar 04:03
As I mentioned earlier, that someone previously, when we, before we came here, and we enjoy the environment and reap the fruit of whatever good contract we had with university and good pay packages, which is like one step above the NIH standard, NIH pay packages. This, this happened because someone before us took efforts, came together, worked, and negotiated. But now, it's our responsibility to do something and leave behind when we, when we leave and when we move to the next step of our career, those who will be coming in--it's our responsibility towards them to give something better for them as well. And also, simultaneously to improve what we are currently having in whatever time we are gonna spend here. Anne?
Anne Sapiro 04:53
Yeah, I definitely agree. I got involved with the union for similar reasons, just really wanting to make UCSF a better place for postdocs to work. Doing a postdoc can be kind of an isolating, difficult experience sometimes. So, I think having a strong union where even though we're all doing our own research, we can sort of lean on each other and get help makes just doing your postdoc at UCSF a special experience. And, I wanted to contribute to that.
Rachel Rudlaff 05:22
That's awesome. I think, so the next question is technically, like, what do postdocs come see you for, but I think a better way of framing it, especially given the nature of the union is, in what ways does the union engage with postdocs? And you know, what ways you interact with postdocs, both inside the-both ones that are really involved in the union, and then postdocs that might not yet be involved in the union?
Anne Sapiro 05:47
I kind of think of two ways you can kind of interface with the union. And, it's either like to get help or to help other people. And so we hope that all postdocs at some point during their time here can sort of do both of those things. So, if a postdoc is having issues, like, accessing their benefits, like they miss a paycheck for an unknown reason, or they can't get their health insurance, or have like housing issues, experience, like harassment or discrimination, they can come to the Union. And we will, you know, listen to that problem and help them figure out a solution. And if it's, like, a major problem, we can actually like file a grievance with the UC to try to, you know, solve, like officially solve that problem. But in the way that Bhushan and I mostly interface with the union now is that we are working with the union to try to help other people. So, we like to organize and reach out to new people, make sure they know what the union is, and what their rights are, and see if they want to, you know, like us, spend a little bit of time helping to sort of improve all of our jobs here at UCSF. So, we also are always looking for new people that want to come in, and like talk to us and work with us and like share their ideas for how we can make UCSF a better place.
Bhushan Kharbikar 07:06
Absolutely. And to build on what Anne said, we engage in two formats, as answered. But, looking into, looking from another direction, it could be a very formal format and informal format. So, formally, and Anne said, we could take up these issues with universities and do litigations. I mean, support the litigation, support some of these cause some, some of these formal title nine discussions, which students can report to us and we could take it to Title Nine, to the university. Recently, we had a very clear judgment coming in our favor when we took up the issue of parking tickets, or the parking fee raise which is which university has to reverse and return the money back to postdocs, and, and, and it benefited not just postdocs, but all other fellows as well. So, this is kind of a formal engagement, what we do. But, we also do informal engagement. We have these small group meetings, we have these small happy hours, we have these small one-to-one discussions where we go and meet people. And then on the informal basis, many of them share what their what they are going through, we share what we, how we face those situation, how we overcome. So, this sharing and caring together also happens in informal ways. So there are both formal and informal ways we engage with and we try to enrich the community and the postdocs and enrich ourselves and learn and then build on whatever we are learning and then pass it on.
Lin Song 08:45
Great. What misconceptions do postdocs have about the union?
Anne Sapiro 08:49
Yeah, so I think one common misconception is that, really now that we have an established union, and we've fought for our current sort of pay and benefits and rights, that it's not that important anymore to keep fighting, and that the union isn't really doing anything for us after like the original people formed the Union. But actually, we, you know, we renegotiate our contract with the UC every four or five years. And so it's really important to, you know, keep fighting to retain the rights that we won as a group, and to also try to like win more rights. So, I think it's just important to note that like, the union is constantly, like, fighting for all of us to have a better working condition. And even if we have a contract, we're always looking ahead to the next contract to really win more rights and be more inclusive and a better place for everybody to work.
Bhushan Kharbikar 09:51
Another thing, what I feel when I interact with lots of postdocs, is the contribution they make towards, monetary contribution they have to make towards a union. So, we are, the union has to sustain, sustain on its own financial budget, we don't have any financial budget from government or from the universities. So, we not just contribute in terms of our efforts, but in terms of small monetary contribution to run all this. Because, I said, we want one of the litigations, but we need, we need some lawyer to hire that, do some paperwork. So, all these things need to be, need money. And we, and we need to, we need funds to do that. So, hopefully, that will resolve most, when we talk to our peers, to our representative and postdoc union, most of this confusion or misunderstanding will go.
Anne Sapiro 10:38
I just want to stress that like, we all put in a little bit of every paycheck to fund the Union. But, it's actually a really, really great investment. We all make way more of that in higher salary and better benefits. So, you're really not only helping the union just function as an organization, but you really get that money back in better contracts and higher pay, which I think is really important.
Bhushan Kharbikar 11:09
It is simple maths, right? I mean, if you if you don't, say for example, if we have a weak union, right? And if you don't, if we don't negotiate a good contract, right? We are on the same salary scale for maybe a few more years. But if we if we give some money, right? If we have a strong union, if we do a very strong negotiation, and if we win a better contract, we can get that difference covered in our next salary, right? So, it's, it's just simple math.
Rachel Rudlaff 11:37
Yeah, I, totally. I think that's such an important point. I think it's, I know, for me, you're like coming into UCSF, and you're like, 'Okay, this is my meager postdoc paycheck, let me subtract rent, subtract...' and then having anything else on that for people can feel like a lot. But, I totally agree with you both that it's an investment.
Anne Sapiro 11:58
Yeah, I think we pay a couple hundred a year. And really, now, we make about $10,000 a year more than we would if we didn't have a union. So, we definitely make all that money back with our contract.
Rachel Rudlaff 12:14
Plus, not including, like, the rate that we pay for benefits is so much lower than other places as well. That's a big chunk.
Anne Sapiro 12:21
Yes, yeah, we pay 10 times less for our health insurance, then most postdocs do. So, another way that we save a lot of money.
Rachel Rudlaff 12:30
Thanks. Yeah, I think that's an important thing. I think that probably, yeah, the contributions is a sticking point, I imagine for some postdocs as they come in. So, that's great.
Lin Song 12:44
Hey, Lin here, I hope you're enjoying this episode. If you are, be sure to check out the postdocs office [email protected] to keep up with the latest resource events and programming to build community among postdocs and help your research and career goals. Also, I encourage you to reach out to any Postdoc Leadership Fellow if you have any questions about what you're hearing in this episode, or if there's something else you would like to hear. And now, back to the podcast.
Rachel Rudlaff 13:28
We were talking about misconceptions before--a thing that we're really interested in is getting people to connect to these organizations. And we understand that it can sometimes feel tricky to know when to reach out or how to get involved in something. And so really, we want to encourage and help people to make that first step. And so, if a postdoc is listening to this and is unsure if you're, if the union, is right for them in terms of a conflict they need resolved or in terms of if they want to get involved and get into the community, what would you say to them to encourage them to reach out and get connected?
Anne Sapiro 13:59
I guess I would say, if you have any problems at all, or want to get more involved, you can, of course, like reach out to any of the union stewards, but also just like your peers, other postdocs in your lab or in neighboring labs are also very likely to be members of our union. And so, you can, you know, just talk amongst the people that you work with every day and that you trust to help you solve your problems. We also do have one full time staff member here at UCSF, Aviva Fields. And she is really great and will respond to like any email and come talk to you and help you try to solve whatever problem you could possibly be having.
Bhushan Kharbikar 14:45
Yeah, absolutely. I agree to that. And, as I said earlier, as well, we are a very open community and all are welcome to connect with us. So, we have this source where you can find the stewards who are representing you, which are closer to you, closest to you. So, how this, how these things are arranged, um, so, we have these postdoc union representatives or stewards or some functionary being assigned responsibility of their floor or a floor above and below that so, each and every floor has a one, has one representative, which is like postdoc functionary or postdoc union functionary. And, and, and that is the, that is the first point of contact if someone really want to make sure that they are they are connecting with their point of contact. But, as Anne mentioned, it is kind of we are kind of an open, open organization. You can reach out to anyone or write to any of the stewards, not just the steward next to you, write to any of the stewards and they will respond to you as quickly as possible. And believe me, we, we get, so, many things come to us most formally as well as informally. So, we are being approached by many of the postdocs, those who are facing some of the challenges in the lab environment. So, the thing is like, whatever thing which we could do at our end, we will do everything possible at our end. If it's not possible at our end, we will direct them and connect them and make sure that they receive the help.
Lin Song 16:11
That's great. I think every postdoc our can just reach out to any stewards. Also, Aviva and the presidents of the Union. The next question is, I also know you guys organize some wonderful community building events for the postdocs, all the time. So, the next question is that, what's your goal for what you want postdocs to take away after they meet with you or attend events from the union?
Anne Sapiro 16:40
Yeah, so I think really, what we want people to feel like after they sort of interface with the union and their peers, is that we're really stronger together as a community. So, individually, we aren't in like positions of power, necessarily, it's really hard to get your needs met when you're just functioning as an individual, but we all actually have really similar problems that we're going through. And, when we come together, and talk to each other, and share those problems and fight for each other, we can actually really make a lot of big changes. And that's really empowering, I think, on like an individual level and a group level, to know that, like, you really have a community here that has your back, and that wants you to succeed. And that you can sort of turn to us. And, we'll all work together to like succeed in our postdocs. And, you know, do good science and also, you know, win the rights that we need to, like have good lives here at UCSF.
Bhushan Kharbikar 17:45
Absolutely. I'll put it in same similar words. I mean, we are considered as as a family or other community as a family away from home. So, we are your family, you come to us, you are, you also become our family. So, we all are collectively a family. We could stand for each other and in all the campaigns and we'll sail through the whirlpool and to sail through all the challenges and make this postdoc a wonderful journey.
Rachel Rudlaff 17:53
That's so great. I feel like you might have answered that semi-, a little bit, in the last question. But, you know, as we close out, what's your favorite thing about working with the union?
Anne Sapiro 18:24
I think for me, my favorite thing about working in the union is just having the chance to really make an impact here outside of my science, I'm really proud of the science that I do. But, actually the feeling that you get when you help a colleague that's struggling, or when you really stand with your peers to like, get the rights that you deserve, it feels really great. And, I think it's a really great opportunity for everybody to be a part of something that's a little bit bigger than themselves.
Bhushan Kharbikar 18:54
Absolutely, I totally second that, and I feel the same. It's, it's a responsibility, which we have. And I'm happy to be part of UC postdoc union.
Lin Song 19:05
It's really beautiful, what you two just said. If you allow me, I will ask one more question. What's the one thing that the union did for postdocs that you didn't expect?
Bhushan Kharbikar 19:16
Let's put it this way--when when I talk about the science, I'm very confident about it, because I do that all all the time, right? Like, 24/7, when, when it comes to the social aspect, I am quite awkward being not able to talk to people, not able to mingle. So, I always thought that getting help or talking to someone which I really don't know, especially functionaries at the postdoc union, it can be pretty awkward. But. believe me, I'm very surprised the way first time I interacted with Aviva and they really made this human to human, I mean human connection or emotional connection or the kind of bonding which we which we build as a as a community of a postdoc. So, really, I was, I was not expected. I always thought that it would also be kind of weird experience for me. But it was like super, super cool experience and really happy. We, as a postdoc, as a postdoc Union, we were able to build such a wonderful environment.
Anne Sapiro 20:16
Yeah, I guess I can definitely second that, that the just the community that the union builds is really amazing. And then, I guess I would also say, just watching recently, some of our postdoc colleagues bargaining for our new contract, it's just really great to see people who are like scientists and mathematicians, and lawyers, just like get together to sort of do something that's outside of their direct field of expertise, and like, go to a bargaining table and fight for their pay and their benefits. And I think it's really exciting to see people do that for themselves, like really take control over that aspect of their work, I think is really exciting. And I didn't necessarily expect that even though I hypothetically know that the union is just run by a bunch of postdocs, but when you actually see a bunch of postdocs sitting with the administration, across the bargaining table, and really fighting for all of us, I think it's, it's really cool.
Bhushan Kharbikar 21:21
Yeah, I believe that it is such a wonderful ground for future leaders to come in and explore themselves. Learn some some of the leadership skills as well.
Rachel Rudlaff 21:32
Yeah, that's awesome. Great answers to the surprise question.
Bhushan Kharbikar 21:37
Yeah, we want to welcome everyone to come and join us. Because we are they are not joining us not to join the postdoc union, they are joining a community.
April Bell 21:50
Thank you for listening to the Postdoc Leadership Fellows Podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. But more than that, we hope that it was helpful to you.
Oleta Johnson 21:58
And if it was helpful to you, we encourage you to share this with any postdoc that you think might find this information useful.
Rachel Rudlaff 22:07
As a reminder, you can contact us at any time. You can find our information on the Office of Postdoctoral Scholars website, and you can also reach out to the postdoc office.
Lin Song 22:19
Thank you so much for listening to this episode.